Hey guys.. Just had some questions about the Greddy Emanage Blue ( was just reading about it in the VVT Dyno topic )
1. Is there any benefit to using one on an otherwise stock motor, I plan do go supercharged down the road, but for the next 18 months at least, I will be NA, possibly longer. Is there any worthwhile power to be gained on an otherwise stock ( will get intake, and exhaust at the most for the time being , but for now, motor is bone stock )..
2. Will the Emange Blue allow me to control my VVT to any degree? I noticed there is an Emanage Ultimate and also a Vmanage offered by Greddy
3. Can the Emanage Blue auto tune? Also are there any known tuners in South Florida? How well does autotune work?
4. Where is the best place to get a Plug and Play wire harness for it? I don't want to deal with any soldering at all
5. What else do I need for it other than the emanage unit and wire harness?
6. Will the emanage be sufficient later down the road when I go supercharged?
Even if you're pure oem, there's maybe 6-8 rwhp to be had with timing and a/f tuning on the blue. Probably no control over the VVT, by any of the Greedy unit's. No auto tune. Greedy has a harness, at extra cost, to simply plug in. If you're going to tune it yourself, you'll need their USB patch cord, a wideband 02 sensor, and a laptop, along with some idea of what you're doing. Yes, the blue will be of significant advantage when tuning for the supercharger. Bob
Adaptronic and Hydra from Flyinmiata, a bit pricy at $1000 and $2000 respectively. But they can do all that you want and they are plug and play units.
So just to be clear- if i get an EMB, it won't affect my factory ECU's ability to control the VVT right? It only changes the other paremeters ( Fuel, timing, etc ), but the stock VVT function will remain intact and working?
The Greedy blue is a piggy-back, ment to use with the oem computer, your oem computer will still control the VVT. Bob
Well, thanks Bob! I'm pulling the trigger on the EMB on Tuesday when i get paid..I think this will be sufficient for my naturally aspirated needs and also my low-ish boost future
Well I got the EMB and map sensor, just need to get a data cable for it now..
Can anyone recommend a specific parts list for building a data cable? im not spending $140 on the greddy cable, no way in hell.. I found the tuning software already, i've heard the following things..
1. a standard usb to usb cable will work just fine ( normal sized rectangular connector on both ends )
2. a pair of USB to serial converters with a female to female serial adapter in the middle will work
3. The greddy specific cable is absolutely required because it changes voltages or something which makes it impossible for the EMB to communicate with your laptop without it..
Which of the above is true?
Also, i know i can make some naturally aspirated power by tuning the fuel/airflow with the EMB, but is there any power to be gained by messing with the timing on a naturally aspirated motor in near stock form?
I've been using this adpt. with my EMB for two years works great............and cheap!
BELKIN-USB-to-SE...item5d261ba29b
I understand a standard usb will plug in to both, but have no idea if it will work. I agree the Greedy patch cord is outrageously priced. I would suspect some low end timing advance would be beneficial. The necessity of smog inspections, requires no more the three degrees, either side of 10, but that's at idle. I set my 99 to advance +4 from 1500 to 4100, then back to oem above that, but I don't have VVT. Using the Greedy, basicly allows the oem computer to control the a/f while in open loop, with the exception of timing, so adding a little timing on bottom will sharpen up the throttle responce and increase the tq a few pound on bottom. In closed loop, the greedy controls all, but the oem timing is adaquite and the a/f ratio is rich. You want a 14.7 to 1 a/f ratio in open loop, enrichning to about 12.5 under full throttle closed loop, but only for naturally asperated, boosted applications want more fuel and less timing on top. Don't trust the oem knock sensor, you'll probably have to relocate it, off of the block, because the Greedy makes it far to sensitive. Set the timing and a/f ratio on a dyno with a remote electronic knock sensor, and the operator listening to it. You'll probably end up with 130+ rwhp, in naturally asperated state, but the throttle responce will be much improved. Boosted will give you more hp, but the throttle responce will soften. Bob
Thanks Elder C, so just a normal Serial to usb adapter will work? That plus a normal serial cable?
Do you find that your EMB is/was sufficient for tuning at the power level you have? I am looking to get to 200whp max down the road
Thanks again Bob, you are just full of extremely helpful information! Once i get my boomslang harness, ill be taking your advice for sure. Still need to find a good dyno shop down here in Lauderdale to do the tuning for me, whoever it ends up being im just printing this thread out and taking it to them haha..
Kepone,
I'am making 219whp 185tq on the EMB using a small T-25, so yes you can make 200 with the right fuel supply. I'am running 360cc from a Mazda 323 GTX @ NB stock fuel pressure of 55-60 psi which makes the 360cc flow closer to 400cc........ Sounds like your right on with the cables now ! heres a link to a good Emanage site :
forums/index.php?
Kepone, Elder makes a good point, you must upgrade the fuel system. There are a number of ways to do that. Your current injectors are probably big enough, but only if you jack up the fuel pressure. All injectors are rated for flow at 45 psi, our cars use 60 psi, and our injectors remain reliable up to 70 psi. The problem is, the oem pump isn't capable of 70 psi at the flow rates needed for 150 rwhp. If you use larger injectors for the increased flow requirements, then less pressure is required. The oem computer is calibrated to use 53 to 61 psi of fuel pressure, and it is best to use that pressure for open loop operation, as the greedy only adjusts for closed loop. So then the problem becomes, how to jack the pressure up for closed loop only. The answer is a larger fuel pump, (Walbro 255 lph hp) and a adjustable, vacuum sensitive, fuel pressure regulator, in a return style system that you currently don't have. Changing over to a return style fuel system, is cheap and easy to do, simply use an earlier oem model return system, upgrade the pump, and install the adjustable fuel pressure regulator. The advantages of this type of fuel system are many. First and foremost is using the fuel pressure as a tuning aid, without returning to the expensive dyno after your base tuning is done, and second you eliminated the preponderance of the non-return system to accumulate contaminates in the tank. The fuel pump is $100+, the fuel pressure regulator is $150+, the rest of the return system is less than $50 at the dealer. You can use the oem fuel rail, by eliminating the pulse dampner and routing the return line to where it was. What you end up with, is a fuel delivery system that runs at 60 psi for open loop, and with vacuum loss, closed loop at 70 psi. You'll find this advantageous even for naturally aspirated, and a necessity for boosting. Bob
@Bob- Interesting, i had not considered any of that Bob, still learning the ins and outs of piggyback ecu tuning, and i definitely don't think i have my head wrapped around the open/closed loop differences yet. I'll be researching more open/closed loop general info today, i really would just like to tune this thing myself. I hate letting other people work on my cars, but im such a n00b at this ECU tuning stuff.
How far ( in terms of rwhp ) could i get with just an injector and fuel pump upgrade, without changing over to a return style fuel system? Also, can you explain why a non return system will accumulate contaminants in the tank, not sure i understand that one..
Oh, is there anything special I need to know about choosing injectors when working with the EMB? If the 323 GTX injectors are good enough to get Elder C to 219whp, they definitely exceed my power goals.. would those same injectors work well with the EMB on my 2002 NB? I am definitely not a fan of running small injectors at near max duty cycle
So much good information here.. thanks a lot guys!
Open loop is when the computer uses all of it's sensors to run the engine, closed loop is the computer running off a fixed map. I'm sure that the larger injectors and fuel pump up grade will get you where you want to go. They don't offer the best tuning possible, it's not all about wide open tuning. On a returnless system, the fuel pressure regulator being mounted in the tank, relieves the excess pressure after the filter. Contaminates settle into the bottom of the tank, and are the first thing picked up by the pump, cycled through the filter and dumped right back into the tank. Over time, the contaminates build up, mostly water, and overwhelm the filter sending a big chunk of water up to the engine. With a return system, the contaminates can't build to the point of causing problems. It is absolutely essential to get your base tuning on a dyno, the whole point of the adjustable fuel pressure regulator is to tune it yourself, after the base tuning. Bob
Thanks Bob, that clears things up immensely..
One other unrelated question- I also got the 2 bar MAP sensor, is this required for use with the EMB or can it just meter off the MAF? I'm trying to figure out what the point of the MAP sensor is, since i've been told the EMB does not allow you to bypass the MAF
Your car already has and use's a bar sensor, it's called a Barometric or boost sensor. The EMB can be set-up to use either, you'll need a three to five bar sensor, to turbo or supercharge with. Your current bar sensor is used by the oem computer to adjust for load, it's a 2 bar sensor. I'd use the airflow meter for naturally asperated, but it will need recalibrating on the dyno. Bob
Kepone,
You can tune your car off the MAF if your N/A, but if you go FI you should use a MAP sensor because MAF tuning is based off your TPS where as a MAP sensor controls your timing and fuel based on the PSI. or VAC. changes in your intake manifold. (although I ran mine turboed for a year off the MAF only because I had it tuned on a Dyno) make sure you get a wideband if your going to street tune it yourself.
So do I need to worry about installing this MAP sensor the EMB came with at all right now? If not, that will truly make this a plug and play install. Since ill be naturally aspirated for at least another year, should I even bother installing the MAP? is it mandatory for the EMB to function?
You quot;do notquot; need to use the MAP sensor if you stay N/A. It is not mandatory the EMB will work without it, like I said in a earlier post I ran my car for a year without one.
Originally Posted by Elder C
You quot;do notquot; need to use the MAP sensor if you stay N/A. It is not mandatory the EMB will work without it, like I said in a earlier post I ran my car for a year without one.
I think i'll just pass on using the MAP sensor completely for now then, no sense in complicating the install when it won't do me much good right now. So if i don't have to worry about the MAP, the Boomslang harness will be literally a total plug and play install right?
Gratuituous Emanage Porn.
kepone I am looking to upgrade my ECU in my 01. and I am interested to hear your comments as to why you chose Greddy Emanage. I can meet since you since I live closed by to help you do the fuel system conversion as Bob suggested.
Best Regards.
Hyper,
We definitely need to meet up one of these days, ive had a hard time finding hard core miata enthusiasts in my area..
As far as why I chose the Emanage- What I really wanted was the Adaptronic, but it's just too expensive. Also, I was reading Quinn's build thread over on Clubroadster, and it seems like he's been having a bit of a nightmare getting his Adaptronic even running at all, i decided i was not ready for that level of frustration and decided that it was best to get something else, especially since my power goals aren't astronomical. I must be the only guy on earth that thinks a 400hp miata is @#$@!$^@^ stupid as hell, i would never consider a V8 conversion or one of those giant turbo kits or whatever, i'm looking to actually improve the vehicle, not make it fast.
So, I decided the KISS approach is best for me ( KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID ! )
I hate those powercard things, they are sloppy, limited and look terrible installed in any vehicle. I hate seeing wires all over the place in a major way.
Even though I live in Florida and we don't have to worry about emmissions here, i can't guarantee that I will always live here, and if i do move one day, i don't want to deal with ripping out my entire engine management system and finding a new alternative, whatever I put in has to be both affordable, and usable in states with strict emmissions down the road, like California. So with those factors in mind, my options were pretty much limited to piggy backs.
I just wanted one unit that could control any injectors i needed, handle all fueling/airflow and timing needs and not much else, remember i just want 200whp max and honestly i'd do backflips if i saw a genuine 180whp one day.. anything above that is a pure bonus..
So i basically narrowed it down to the EMB vs the EMU, with the only real benefits from the EMU being auto-tune ( like Kanye! ) , and VVT control. Those features did not justify the additional cost of going EMU vs EMB, and the EMU with accessories was so close in price to the Adaptronic that it is frankly not worth considering. When all is said and done, I will have gotten an EMB with Map Sensor, Boomslang Harness, Data Cable and Software for a grant total of well under $400 shipped by shopping cleverly online, or roughly cheaper than a pair of ****** powercards...
When you look at it that way, the EMB was just too good to pass up.
$400.00?? well I did the entire fuel system conversion and it was a bit more than that. with the fuel pump itself was like 100.00 and the fuel rail another 120.00, the fuel filter about 40.00 and the fuel pressure regulator being the most expensive of all ranging from 130 to 180.00. you need one that can control the big Walbro.
You can run cheap rubber lines but but I think is best to buy and add a used hard line from another NB and run it under the car. The space for the line is there, piece of cake.
Yep I paid $120 shipped for an unused EMB with map sensor and map sensor harness ( about a $500 value new ). A Boomslang harness is about $220, and the serial cables end up being about $30 for all the parts, so that brings me to $390 total..$390 total is what it took to get engine management that suits my needs now and later, something halfway between crap powercards and a full standalone.
In any case, whether you do the EMB, Adaptronic, Hydra, whatever, you still have to spend additional money later upgrading the rest of the fuel system, that's a whole separate cost that I am not talking about here. Just purely electronics. Likewise the prices you quoted above don't include the electronics, i'm not a fan of analog tuning, especially when dealing with forced induction.
P.S. I did notice that the space for the fuel return line was there when I was installing my frame rails the other day.. |
Post at 2-7 04:36 AM
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