I have a 97 NA that I'm trying to get ready for a few track days next year. My problem is I can't do a proper heel amp; toe. First off, yes, I know how to heel amp; toe, but my 97 has a pedal placement that makes it VERY difficult. I added a Rennenmetal pedal, but when I use the brakes, in an aggressive manner, the brake pedal ends up being slightly lower than the gas pedal. This makes it VERY difficult to heel amp; toe.
Is anyone else having similar problems?
I'm thinking of shortening the gas pedal (Mike's Garage), taking off the Rennenmetal gas pedal extension, and bending the gas pedal over to the left.
What do you think?
What has worked for you?
RonO
Practice, practice, practice.
I use the stock pedals in my 95, and when I brake, I brake with the center of the ball of my foot on the lower left corner of the brake pedal, and rotate my heel to the right and slap the gas with the top of my foot by rolling my ankle.
I know because I am wearing a hole in the center of my right shoe, and have a very shiny part on the top of the right side of my right foot.
This is going to sound snide, but take all that crap off and try harder. Both of my Miatas with untouched pedals have the same(ish) pedal placement as all the formula ford's skip barber uses. One of my instructors told us over and over again, quot;while braking, knees together like your mother told your sister.quot; You can brake, hard, with the left part of the ball of your foot, and use an exaggerated downward ankle roll rotation with the bottom/side of your heel (depends on your shoe size) to blip throttle. Try it, practice it, love it. I actually find a wider shoe helps, so I hung up my uncomfortable narrow racing shoes and wear my runners, EEE.
Spec Miata guys are torn on this. I spoke to one with some experience, he puts the pedal extension on the brake pedal to raise it to throttle pedal height while braking.
Yes, ditch the extension thing and just bend the throttle pedal over closer to the brake.
If that doesn't help, try pointy Italian loafers.
My '95 Audi has plenty of leg room and perfect stock pedal placement for me. I'm very tight in my NA but was able to heel-and-toe after bending the gas pedal to the left and down. Just make it work for you.
Thanks for the advice guys. I found my 1990 NA easier to heel and toe. It had a smaller, aftermarket steering wheel, which I think freed up some knee space. I will ditch the throttle pedal extension, which adds height to an already high throttle pedal, and try bending the stock pedal closer to the brake pedal.
Webby459, I'll give your heel and toe method a try.
RonO
You're on the right track with the smaller steering wheel. I use a smaller aftermarket wheel and an extension to bring the wheel closer. That frees up my knees to actually move. That, along with wrestling shoes and I'm good to go. Tried all the other stuff to no avail. You just can't do it when your knee is jammed between the wheel and the center console.
No, no, no. He says he already knows how to heel/toe, and I believe him.
I had similar problems with my NA (after 15 years of heel/toeing everything I drove). Here is what I did to fix it:
1) Raise the brake pedal. There is a threaded adjustment under there. Take a look at the shop manual to best understand it. You have to lay in the footwell, but once you do, it's dead easy. I raised my pedal about 0.25quot; in about five minutes.
2) Make sure you have knee room. I'm 6'2quot;, so while the brake pedal adjustment helped, I could not brake well at the track with my knees splayed out to either side of the steering wheel.
3) Once I installed a smaller steering wheel, along with hub hardware the moved the wheel closer to me, it was perfect. (NOTE: I retained my stock airbag for safety and did not remove it until after I installed a roll bar, race seat, and 5-pt. harness.)
I am a fan of gas pedal extensions which bolt behind the gas pedal.
I bought one years ago from a guy who was making CNC pedals here on the forums. I think his name was Simpson.
I believe he sold off that part of the business, and the pedals are now sold by vendors like Go Miata. That said, the gas pedal quot;extensionquot; is not available anymore.
Flyin' Miatas pedal set is the only one that I am aware of that is very similar - if not the exact product - that I'm talking about.
I have RennenMetal extension, and find it to be a boon.
Get narrow shoes (I like Puma), and make sure that your brakes are in great order.
Right now my brake pedal is way below my gas pedal, and, yes, it's a bit of a pain to heel-toe. I have to rotate my heel in order to blip the throttle, but, before I'm on the track (23/24, with Wildo ), I'm gonna make sure that my brakes can stop a tractor, and the pedal is way above the gas, the way I usually like it.
Beats me. Post 6, 7, and 8 mention knee room. I don't know what this is about. My knees don't move about when I drive. If I can sit in the car, I can heel-toe it. I guess I'll have to let the knee floppers continue this conversation.
Those who have swapped to an aftermarket wheel, what did you use?
Ideally I'm looking for something slightly smaller than stock, flat bottom, with a quick detach hub
Thanks for stealing the thread, but, I'll answer.
Pilot D-shaped is the cheapest. No longer made in all black, but black with red inserts, it has dual horn buttons in spokes, like stock.
I first bought mine for $85 private, and just picked up another for $25 from Autozone (I think it was discontinued).
It is slightly smaller than stock, well made, flat bottom.
For quick release hub (which is wheel-independent), you'll have to mount your horn button somewhere else, like the dash, unless, of course, the car is track only.
P.S. Guess what?
The wheel is now again available at Sears
Mine is the second one down($108), only black.
You'll need Miata-specific Grant adapter, and 5- to 6-holes steering wheel adapter, available from Summit Racing.
P.P.S.
For proper heel and toe, your knees should NOT move, but only your ankles and your feet (as the name of technique implies. Lance is right.
Originally Posted by calteg
Those who have swapped to an aftermarket wheel, what did you use?
Ideally I'm looking for something slightly smaller than stock, flat bottom, with a quick detach hub
330mm. It's not THAT radical a change. It feels just fine, and if anything, is a better quot;fitquot; for the car than the huge stocker. I have a manual steering rack with huge caster, and I'm fine with this wheel. If anything, I'd like to go a step smaller.
I got a Momo Model 78. I have a quick-release hub, too, just to help me get in/out.
i/Grant/470/741/10002/-1?CT=999
if you want a much smaller wheel...
Originally Posted by Lance Schall
Beats me. Post 6, 7, and 8 mention knee room. I don't know what this is about. My knees don't move about when I drive. If I can sit in the car, I can heel-toe it. I guess I'll have to let the knee floppers continue this conversation.
I don't move my knee, and my ankle stays on the floor. With my extremely long legs, my knee has to stay far to the right, which also requires the outside of my foot to be lower than the inside. Thus, I had to lower the gas pedal. Maybe your feet are very wide, but I also couldn't do it until I moved the pedals closer.
I am relieved to hear that you superior physiology or technique allows you to do it without modification, though.
Yes, I lower the throttle pedal and bent it closer to the brake to make heel-toe easier. But, once I get situated in a car, my knee doesn't have to move while downshifting.
When I look at other people in Miata, it appears that the person of diameter has more trouble fitting in the car than the person of height.
Here is a short clip of one heel amp; toe technique. (I get the impression that there is more than one variation.)
watch?v=IuoZe...eature=related
I showed it to my driving instructor and that is the technique he uses. He is one of the better Spec Miata drivers in Oregon amp; Washington.
I watched Boris Said during a NASCAR race using the same technique.
Since he needs to lift his heal, it looks to me as his knee is bending.
Not to hijack the thread or anything but couple quick questions...
1. Any tips for someone thats never heel to toe'd before? (first manual transmission car Ive had)
2. When you blip the throttle how high do you want it to go? (rpm wise)
I am not getting it done very well. Typically I make mistakes, which I tring to learn from. You need to match the rpms with the gear you are down shifting into SO that 1) You do not lug down the engine by having the rpms to low or 2) have the real wheels turn faster that what they would otherwise - in this case it up sets the balance of the car resultintg in the rear tires to lose their grip, which causes the rear of the car to get off line - the extreme case of this would cause the car to spin out.
It should be a seemless transition. The best way to see amp; isten to this demonstrated is to go to UTube and find a clips of this happening. Search under quot;Heel amp; toe.quot; In this forums Track section. You will find clips of the heal amp; toe techique in some of the threads.
Below are clips of Spec Miatas on tracks in the Northwest..For example Taryn Sparcio at Portland Internation is downshifting in the first corner first corner (150*) is going from 3rd at 6to 2nd. The last downshift on the last corner before going on the straight is from 4th to
3rd. List to the engine and is how the momentum of the car does not change and the car stays on the same line.
index.php/videos/
It will be sometime before I can do this correctly on a consistent basis.
.I do not know if I am explaing it in a way that is unThe rpms should match the gear your down shifting
Originally Posted by kc0stp
Not to hijack the thread or anything but couple quick questions...
1. Any tips for someone thats never heel to toe'd before? (first manual transmission car Ive had)
2. When you blip the throttle how high do you want it to go? (rpm wise)
Invent your own method.
I brake with my heel and use my toe to rev-match.
I didn't know any better and this was years before the internet.
No knee problems either as the leg is turned slightly to the side.
This works great for the road.
For flat out racing I use the other method of heel/toe.
The important thing to remember is to make sure that you can ALWAYS do an emergency stop from any stance you happen to be performing -when driving on public roads. That kid that jumps in front of you wont appreciate your perfectly rev-matched downshifts if you can't apply full emergency braking immediately.
I guess this isn't the thread to talk about left-foot braking whilst Dog-Shifting!!
91BaseGuy says:
1) Raise the brake pedal. There is a threaded adjustment under there. Take a look at the shop manual to best understand it. You have to lay in the footwell, but once you do, it's dead easy. I raised my pedal about 0.25quot; in about five minutes.
and I agree with him. It's harder to heel/toe with your brake below your gas pedal. Having your brakes up to snuff with fresh pads, recent bleed, etc., will help too.
In addition to that, I put some aftermarket aluminum pedal tops on. I used Sparco Race pedals and spent a fair amount of time with getting them in just the right position for heel/toe. The extended gas pedal helps a lot. I also put some 1/8quot; aluminum bar under the brake pad to move the brake pedal just a bit higher.
ptuning_pedals.asp?id=339
This put everything in the right place to make heel/toe pretty easy. Or you could just buy a NC which has a pretty good setup for heel/toe already...
Jim
I don't actually quot;move my kneequot; when heel-toe shifting. But, I rotate my foot so the right edge of my heel strikes the gas pedal. In stock form my knee was aimed to the right and jammed between the center console and the wheel. This aimed my heel to the wrong side to start with.
I could also use the right edge of the front of my foot by moving the gas pedal closer. But, that was far less consistent (especially to someone who learned the other way on other cars). Moving the wheel makes the car much more comfortable in day to day use also (except for the reach to the turn signal).
I think the problem varies with body proportions, I think it's an arm vs. leg length thing. The same solution isn't for everyone. I tried everything else described in this thread and more.
I also found it is extremely easy to heel-toe on the street. Much more difficult on the track when the brake goes lower and you have to hit the gas harder and faster. Street practice kept making me think the quick fixes were going to work, but they didn't on track.
Also, I actually like the gas being a little higher as it allows me to really hammer the gas pedal when it's time to do so. When the car didn't fit me I really wanted the brake higher.
Originally Posted by Racing Grandpa
Here is a short clip of one heel amp; toe technique. (I get the impression that there is more than one variation.)
That is indeed why it is called quot;heel-toequot;, but I prefer and practice this method, as demonstrated by Ayrton Senna (minus the loafers, in my case ).
watch?v=8By2AEsGAhUamp;NR=1
Using this diagram, I guess you could call it Brain-Shoulder shifting.
(Actually, Brain-Gall Bladder might be more accurate)
Store/pc/...tchdiagram.gif
Neither method, in my case and in my car, require more than a slight rotation of the knee (if at all). Knee-gymnastics are not needed and would feel odd to me.
Originally Posted by Wildo
That is indeed why it is called quot;heel-toequot;, but I prefer and practice this method, as demonstrated by Ayrton Senna (minus the loafers, in my case ).
Senna did it exactly the way I always do it. I had no idea I was so influential! |
Post at 2-7 04:31 AM
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